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Enchanted Knives by boekie
Name General Description
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Enchanted Knives v5
2500
UNIQUE
General
Wave lvl: 60

Submission
By: boekie
Date:2010-01-13 12:31:28
Status:
IN THE MAP beta v0.6
ID:120
Last Update:2015-03-06 08:16:35
Description
These knives were used by a famous nightelf ranger. They can attack multiple units at once.

Abilities
Multishot
Attacks up to 3 targets at the same time.
Specials

Specials:
-50% attackspeed


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Discussion

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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:43 pm 
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There are 3 events you have to differentiate.
1) onAttack: Is executed whenever the tower starts an attack. It doesn't matter whether the attack misses. You can even stop the attack before the projectile is released and the event is still executed.

2) onDamage: Is executed whenever the tower deals damage through attacks including bounce, splash and multishot (this item adds multishot!). Spells never trigger this event. Some towers/items do an extra check to prevent the effect on secondary targets (targets hit by bounce, splash or multishot).

3) onDamaged (used by buffs for example): Is executed whenever the unit takes damage and it doesn't matter what type of damage so attack damage and spell damage work fine.

Burning Watchtower places a buff and thus the onDamaged event is important. A Blaster Staff deals spell damage which triggers the onDamaged event.

Btw. it doesn't matter whether the tower or a dummy of the tower deals the spell damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:26 pm 
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Wow, thanks for details. It means every tick of fire dps spells (Geyser, Area Roaster, Fire Star, Caged Fire) also increases overall buff damage. Now all this synergy thing looks clear.
And now i know, where i want to use those Glaives and Knives.

P.S.: one more detail. Initial "burn" buff can be placed by ANY damage from Watchtower (it doesn't need to be main attack), right?


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:03 pm 
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The tower uses the onDamage event to place the buff, so spell damage won't work but you can use Enchanted Knives to place it on 3 targets simultaneouesly.
A tower can never use the onDamaged event, only the buffs they place can.


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:20 pm 
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Oh, ok, so i need to place many Watchtowers and micro them to place buff on every unit. But for further stacking i just need to place more damage source into those towers.

God bless me with many Hyppo-eggs, Bartuc Spirits, Knives, Glaives and Blaster Staffs! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Err. kind of off-topic but how do you do a watch tower build? I tried it many times and it fails so bad. Some advice would help.


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Begin with 3 or 4 in fire element and roll to get at least 3-4 WT (watchtowers) - their chance to appear is very luck-based later (and i still can't find Fire level at which they spawn most of time), so try to get as many as you can early. Place them with interval of 1-2 tower beginning at spawn point (i mean closest to spawn) and ending near your actual towers. The idea is to place buff as early as possible and then keep stacking damage while creep walks.

Just for example: 4 WTs placed in right points and 2-3 turtles/sprayers mean sure death for first Challenge on medium. He comes with 100+ damage stacked on him. Sprayer has around 20 own damage - and suddenly gots 500% increase :wink: Benevolent Witch with 3-4 turtles makes most incredible finisher for such strat, but you also can use Naga and Sprayers.

Stacked damage is added to hitter's direct attack damage. So if your tower has 100 current damage, 2.00x crit, hits creep with 200 stacked damage and crits, damage will be ~600. I think this is what Brazier was created for, but it still isn't as powerful as Turtle. I also assume that Geyser's spell damage will take bonus "burn" damage as base too, so you can trigger really nice spell dps on target.

Bonuses and maluses are simple - bonus "burn" damage doesn't care about DPS of your towers. Only attack speed matters.
Also i advice to use 2-3 Igniters (4-shot spell dps) to quckly increase stacks (damage ticks twice a second) but that's up to you. I also got no Caged Fire last 3 games, so i couldn't test its damage increase and stacking with WT build.

And i didn't got any unique fire towers, no Keeper, so i lost around 90-120 wave 3 times in a row. There's just too much randomness in this build, and if your luck is fucked up you can't quickly switch to other tactic. I'll make further tests on this build just of waiting new version and boredom :)

And sorry for my english, it may be quite messy.


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:15 pm 
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Try with Vulshok as carry and tell us about it :)


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:34 pm 
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Just doing another quick run on Medium. Took Spirit Warden that time.
Thank for reminding: i forgot that Vulshok actually has very low cd on attack, so he could use WT build. Well, i still need him to appear ;)

Also... If buff placed, it will increase every damage, include spells. Blaster staff with 60 base damage deals up to 200 each strike now)))


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Ideally, if you have build mode, how would your burning tower build works?


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:56 pm 
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The extra damage is added after crits, so crits won't increase it. There is actually only one way to increase this bonus damage. You need another tower which applies a buff which increases the damage dealt by a factor. For example Storm Battery places such a buff. Now you have to hope that the onDamaged event handler of watchtower's buff is executed first (I guess the first applied buff is used first, then the second one and so on ...).
The damage system works roughly as following:
1) Attack
3) Hit. Damage is calculated including race/size bonuses and crit
4.1) onDamage event of tower
4.2) onDamage event of items
4.3) onDamaged event of buffs
5) Damage is applied

I'm not 100% sure of the order of the damage events in 4).

To increase the damage of watchtower's buff, it must be executed before other onDamaged event handlers. Example:
1) 1000 damage
2) Watchtower's buff: +500 damage => damage = damage + 500 = 1500
3) Storm Battery's buff: +40% damage => damage = 1500 * 1.4 = 2100
---
1) 1000 damage
2) Storm Battery's buff: +40% damage => damage = damage * 1.4 = 1000 * 1.4 = 1400.
3) Watchtower's buff: +500 damage => damage = 1400 + 500 = 1900


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Quote:
The extra damage is added after crits, so crits won't increase it.

Are you sure?
I believe it added to attack damage in case of direct attacks, because right now in game my Brazier gives different crits on different creeps of one size and wave. The only difference is amount of stacked damage on them (from 1-2 to 80-120 for normals). Brazier's own attack isn't that random. And before you ask - i look carefully at those exclamation marks after crit numbers.

Also Blaster Staff on Watchtower can't spellcrit for 200+ damage (alone), because spellcrit multiplier on that tower is only 1.35 or so, and base spell damage of Staff is 60.


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:24 pm 
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I don't think he said that crit wasn't increased by previous bonus damages, I think he said that crit aren't increased by the bonus damage of the current attack (the one who crits). I think.

Let's say every attack of your tower gives +10 damage thanks to Watchtower's buff.

Your tower deals 100 damage + 10. The crit will apply on the 100 damage but not the 10 bonus damage.

Now if you're tower deals damage again, the crit will apply to the 110 damage (the 100 base damage + the 10 bonus from the previous shot), but not the 10 bonus damage of this actual hit.

That's what I understood anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:33 pm 
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Well, if that's was meant, then i have no problems with it.
Right now it was obvious on another Challenge Boss, that brazier crits more and more with more stacks of Burn ;)

I think i will create new topic with replay to discuss this build and watch what happens in game for those interested.

Edit: done. We can finish offtopic here ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:42 pm 
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No, no. The number shows how much damage the attack did. This damage is affected by watchtower and thus the number is bigger but nevertheless the crits damage is calculated before and does not take the bonus damage into account.
Example:
Tower deals 100 damage and crits with 2x damage on a target which gets 100 extra damage:
Damage = (100 * 2) [crit] + 100 [watchtower's buff] = 300
The final damage is then shown (300 in this case).


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 Post subject: Re: Enchanted Knives v2 (120)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Quote:
The number shows how much damage the attack did
]
It should show how much damage CRIT did, right? Aren't those numbers and real damage syncronized?

And if you disagree on bonus damage being accounted for that crit damage, then i clearly can't understand how in the world that Brazier got more and more crit damage numbers. Like it did crit several times for same damage, than target has got some burn stacks, and then Brazier again attacks - and wow, it displays increased numbers for same single crit (when it makes single crit), and that number doesn't increase AND decrease randomly, it raises, and only raises as long as targeted creep has "burn" debuff.

Quote:
Tower deals 100 damage and crits with 2x damage on a target which gets 100 extra damage:
Damage = (100 * 2) [crit] + 100 [watchtower's buff] = 300

Then it should NOT increase Brazier's Crits that much. Increase must be linear, if you are correct.

And while this formula is hard to test on Brazier, i have another situation:
Single WT at spawn point with Blaster staff. It attacks quite slow. X attacks were made on boss creep, last hit shown ~100 burn damage, then (after 0.3-0.5 seconds creep is hit by Magic missile from staff). Base damage is 60, i suppose it's now 45 because of Naga, and this WT has no other bonuses or penalties to spelldamage. I looked carefully into MBoard at that moment. So missile spelldamage is 45 and "burn" damage on that target is ~100. Spellcrit value is 1.35x or something close to that (base value i believe). And this mentione magic missile suddenly spellcrits for ~200 damage.

If all you say is correct, Tomy, it WOULD NOT HAPPEN. It must be then like that: 45*1.35+100= ~160
In case i am correct it must be like that: (45+100)*1.35= ~200

Maybe there's something in code that doesn't work as you suspect?
I didn't looked at WT's code at all, i only tell you what i see in game.

If displayed numbers of crits and spellcrits are wrong, then it should be fixed. But i doubt they are wrong.


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